ALPS In Brief - Episode 68: The Unnecessary Burdens of Growing Up in the Witness Protection Program

Jackee Taylor was put into the Federal Witness Protection program as a 7-year-old after her father, Clarence Crouch, a convicted killer and infamous member of the Hells Angels, turned and became a government informant. Mark interviews Jackee about the realities and consequences the children of WITSEC face and what we can learn from them. 

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Transcript:

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Hello, I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte. I'm the risk manager here at ALPS. And welcome to the latest episode of ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. And boy, do I have an interesting guest today that I just, the more I learn and get to visit with her, it's just, wow. My guest today is Jackee Taylor, and where I first heard about Jackee and learned a bit about her story is from a very, very interesting podcast and Jackie Time, it's C 30. What's the platform?

Jackee Taylor:

C 13.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

C 13. Thank you. Yes. C 13. But the podcast series, and it's about the 10 episodes, roughly what, nine, 10 hours, I guess, called relative unknown. We're not going to sit here and talk about everything that's in this podcast, but I will tell you folks, it is worth a listen. So if you have some time and you're driving to the office or taking a plane somewhere just out for a run, I strongly encourage you to take a listen to this. So Jackie, welcome. It's such a pleasure.

Jackee Taylor:

Thank you.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Could you take just a couple of minutes and share for our audience a little bit about you? What is important from your perspective that you think these folks would want to know?

Jackee Taylor:

Basically, my name, I'm Jackie Taylor. I was put into the Federal Witness Protection Program at seven years old in 1982. My father was a Hell's Angel, and he turned on the club and he turned informant and helped them prosecute a few individuals that were guilty of some crimes back in the seventies and eighties. Now I am basically an advocate of grown children of witness protection that are struggling with their identification issues, mental health, things like that. In a nutshell, I can't... Because my documentation has never been rectified from the US Marshals, I cannot leave the country. I cannot buy a house. I cannot go to college. There's a lot of things that I cannot do. However, I am okay, I will be okay. I've been okay for almost 50 years, but these things still are not right. I am not the only person that is struggling with identification issues that is an adult that was put on witness protection as a kid. I am not the only person. I've had a lot of people reach out to me now, and now I'm advocating for them as well.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

I think that's awesome.

Jackee Taylor:

Thank you.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

It is an overwhelming task, I imagine. You're fighting a system, but somebody needs to do it.

Jackee Taylor:

I am. Thank you.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Taking the mantle on is God bless. Good for you.

Jackee Taylor:

Thank you.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Let's back up on this story. So you're in this Witness protection program, and I don't want to spoil too much of... But you don't have a relationship with your father.

Jackee Taylor:

Correct.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

I don't want to tell the whole story about your father, again, I just want them to listen to the podcast.

Jackee Taylor:

You have to listen to the podcast.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

It really is worth it, folks. But you are obviously gone public. You were no... You've outed yourself, if you will.

Jackee Taylor:

Yes.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

And am I remembering correctly, this occurred around the age of 19?

Jackee Taylor:

No, actually it occurred in 2008 and 2009 is when-

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Oh,.

Jackee Taylor:

The first article went out. Yes.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

What brought you to that point?

Jackee Taylor:

I've struggled with issues with my identification actually, since I was a little girl getting... My mom couldn't get us into softball. She had to beg and plead. I tried to get a marriage license back in '96 and I was denied because I don't have a birth certificate. Getting into college was a struggle, thank God I knew somebody on the admissions board that I babysat for, and the Patriot Act wasn't in effect yet because that was in '95. So I've struggled with things over the years, but I was at a place where I was okay. And then my children's healthcare got canceled. They were on Medicaid.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Yeah.

Jackee Taylor:

My children's healthcare got canceled because I could not produce a birth certificate that the marshals would... I was never given a birth certificate, so I don't have one. There's not a way that they could get me one. The judge refused to sign off on my family getting individual birth certificates.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

So it-

Jackee Taylor:

It started affecting my children.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Okay. And so it's a point of just saying I've had enough.

Jackee Taylor:

Absolutely.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

The inefficiencies, all the things in terms of the federal marshals and-

Jackee Taylor:

Trying to call and, okay, call this number. We call this number, okay, write a letter to this. Make sure that you send it certified or registered mail. It has to be signed for that so that you can prove that it got there. I can't tell you how many letters I sent. Can't tell you how many calls I've made. And there's just been no help. Nobody seems to care. So when these people, and it's me, my sister, and my brother, we've all had these issues. But then when it starts affecting our children, and now I have other people reaching out to me because I just went public. Hey, I'm having the same issues too. Of course, I have to vet these people out and make sure that they're legit. So I make them tell me what transpired, what city was it out of, and then I verify, okay, this did happen. So tell me your story. So these other people are reaching out and they're having these problems too. So I'm not the only person, my family's not the only people out there that are struggling.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

And just to make sure everyone in the listening audience here is fully aware of where these struggles come from. I understand, folks, when you entered witness protection, Jackie Taylor was not born Jackie Taylor. That's her name after going into witness protection and all the family, I think brothers, you have a brother, sister.

Jackee Taylor:

I have a brother and a sister.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Mother and everybody's name was changed. And no one is given sort of solid, consistent identification things that all of us take for granted. It's got the original birth certificate, we've got the social security card, the passport, and all the spellings that you were sharing in a present presentation here that, I think you said a Wisconsin-

Jackee Taylor:

Wisconsin social security number.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

It's just-

Jackee Taylor:

Yeah, on my passport, it states I was born in Cleveland, so that red flags certain, if I want to go get a home loan, that's a red flag. Well, why do you have a Wisconsin Social security number? But it says you're... I'm throwing flags. And that's not a good thing.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

I can't imagine.

Jackee Taylor:

I've been stopped at TSA, and how do you explain this stuff? I got pulled over once and they couldn't find me in their system at all. I was arrested a couple of times. I know I'm in the system, but they couldn't find me. And they asked me who I really was. So that's happened to a couple of other folks that I've talked to as well. Right now, I no longer exist. This is something I didn't talk about. I no longer exist with the Social Security Department. Oh, wow. I just recently found that out.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Oh my gosh.

Jackee Taylor:

So now what?

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Yeah.

Jackee Taylor:

I mean, there's certain things. Am I going to die? No. Does my life suck? No. Because I make sure that it doesn't, even with all of these roadblocks, but does it impede my civil rights? I've worked since 1989 when I was 14 years old. I've paid my taxes. I've worked for 35 years now. I've paid my taxes.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Yeah. And you deserve this.

Jackee Taylor:

I deserve my-

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Oh, absolutely.

Jackee Taylor:

Basic rights as an American citizen.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Yeah.

Jackee Taylor:

That's all we're asking for.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Yeah. My mind, boy, that's not a lot to ask for.

Jackee Taylor:

It really isn't.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

It's something you guys are all owed and deserve.

Jackee Taylor:

Entitled to. And especially that we were-

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Yes. I honestly, I agree with-

Jackee Taylor:

Yeah, we were born into this. We didn't ask for it, nor did we even ask to be born, period. But we were. We were put into witness protection as children. And that's just to make it clear, that's the only people I'm really advocating for. Were grown children of WITSEC. If you're an adult and you're put into WITSEC, you made your bed, you can lie in it. Do I think that they need to be looked after too, just like my father needed to be looked after? Yes.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

But when you made this decision so out of frustration and your initial step was...

Jackee Taylor:

Call the newspaper.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Call the newspaper, because you were not getting any responses anywhere else. And so that really goes public. And there's been a lot of traction since that time in terms of your story, not the least of which is against this podcast, but there's lots of other things that have happened and are in the works even now. But when you reached that point, was there... It's just frustration alone and you just got to do something? Or was that balance of I would think just even some concerns about coming out of witness protection, except just safety and things. Did that factor-

Jackee Taylor:

I didn't feel in danger back then.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Okay.

Jackee Taylor:

No. I had ran into some Hell's Angels back in, I believe it was '94 or '95, and I was told that I was not in danger. It was just a random event, random occurrence that we ended up at the same social gathering. And I was told that I was not in danger. So was I nervous about the Hell's Angels fight? No. I wasn't worried for my security and my safety. But where you said, was it out of pure frustration? It was out of pure frustration. Absolute. I spent that entire day when I got the letter from the state of Montana saying that they were canceling my kids' Medicaid.

I spent all day on the phone talking, calling different congressmen, calling different senators, calling different people, politicians in the city of Billings. And the buck was passed, the buck was passed, the buck was passed. John Tester's office is the only office I ever had any luck with, and I thank you for that, John Tester. We need to get back in touch. But nobody else wanted to do anything. And our current governor at the time couldn't do anything. I was just passing the buck. So right out of frustration that night, I called the Gazette.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

So this is happening. It's been a little, what, 14 years? 12, 14 years since initially. It's one thing again, to make this decision out of anger, out of frustration, and gosh darn it, you're going to do something about it. You haven't run out of steam.

Jackee Taylor:

No.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

What is driving you?

Jackee Taylor:

Every couple of months I get a new person or a case that reaches out to me that's struggling. Just a few weeks, well, a couple months ago, I had somebody reach out, a brother and sister that were put... I call them the kids because they're 26, and almost 30. They're not kids, but they were born children into witness protection. They're currently being threatened with, if you don't follow the rules, if you talk out of... If you tell anybody, if you gripe about the program, we're going to deport you back to your country and you will be killed. So that's not a way that it needs to be handled.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Well, that's not right.

Jackee Taylor:

It's not right. I'm worried about these kids. Like I said, am I going to die because I don't have a birth certificate? I don't have my passport current? No.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

But these kids could.

Jackee Taylor:

These kids are afraid of their shadows. I just got a text from the sister today saying, "I have never felt safe in my life." That brings me to tears a little bit because nobody should feel like that.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Yeah, I can't imagine.

Jackee Taylor:

And she's just a kid. And she was born into this because of what her parents did before she was born and afters. And none of those children do. None of us deserve to be swept under the rug and be told that we need to behave and obey or we're going to be killed. Who can speak for this girl now? Because she's afraid of the marshals. I'm not. But I'm not going away. Do I want to work with the marshals now? Yes. I would like to figure out something that we can do together. I have answers. I have solutions. I genuinely care about these people in witness protection. And I cannot say the same for the marshals. And nobody deserves to feel like that. And are we a limited few? Yes. There's only about 10,000 children on WITSEC or grown children like myself. But that's 10,000 people in the United States that are being swept under the rug and have to live a secret scary life where we don't have normal rights as anybody else. Just because we were born to our parents.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

I don't need to take anything away, I think. Is there an element here of healing or making peace with all the crazy things that have happened in your life? Is it trying to add a purpose?

Jackee Taylor:

No. No. I would say this is just more of a mission that I'm the only one who can conquer.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

You can do it. Yeah.

Jackee Taylor:

I had a health scare last month and my kidneys started not functioning properly because of my antidepressant. You know what happens. So you got to switch it around. But I had a very dark couple of days thinking, oh my God, I'm going to die. Oh my God. What if this happens? I got to write out my will. Oh my God. Who are going to... There's nobody else. There's nobody out there that can help these WITSEC kids. What about the WITSEC kids? Oh my God, if I die, who's going to take care of... There's nobody. So I wouldn't call it a burden at all, but I'd like to get on with my fricking life someday. And I can't, until this is all rectified and they start listening, and I'm not going away. I'm using every platform I possibly can. Every person that's willing to, thank you, interview me for their podcast.

Thank you very much, that this is helping.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Yeah.

Jackee Taylor:

Because we're spreading awareness.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Absolutely.

Jackee Taylor:

People had no idea about how we live as people in witness protection. You do not get a new house, you do not get a new car, you do not get a briefcase full of money. You don't even get proper identification. If you listen to the podcast, you'll find out where we are actually put in Billings, Montana. And it was the most nasty hotel that you can possibly imagine. And I always say, I'm no princess. I'll stay at a second rate motel to save money, but I would not stay, I wouldn't put my worst enemy in the hotel that they put us in. It was horrible. And we didn't deserve that. Maybe my father did, but my mother and my brother and sister didn't deserve that.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Yeah. Well you're the-

Jackee Taylor:

We're second class citizens.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

But also just victims that I'm not sure what the right... You're innocent victims, if that makes any sense.

Jackee Taylor:

Collateral damage.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Yes. Maybe that's such a shame. May I share, and if there are a lot of lawyers that listened to this, obviously, if anyone had some thoughts or just wanted to become involved, may they reach out to you? I should meet-

Jackee Taylor:

Absolutely, yes.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

If you would like to share some contact information or how they can reach, please feel free. If you want to have them contact us and pass something along, whatever's best for you.

Jackee Taylor:

I mean, anybody can reach me at any time. I'm Jackie Taylor, J-A-C-K-E-E. Taylor. My podcast is Relative Unknown. I have an email, jthood74@hotmail.com. But yeah, I actually need to know what to do with these two kids. I didn't get into it too much, but there's a lot of other people on my agenda that I'm trying to get help for. But these two kids stand out to me because they were issued two year work visa.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

The clock's ticking.

Jackee Taylor:

The clock's ticking on this. And they're constantly being threatened today. Today she was receiving texts from the Marshalls. Well, things are changing with your two year work visas. And that's what she said. She's never felt safe a day in her life. But I need to know, what can we do for these kids? How do we get them their citizenship? Can we claim political asylum? These are the two that I'm focusing on right now. If anybody's out listening that is interested in getting involved or thinks that they might have an answer to my solution or a solution to my problem, or maybe just a suggestion, please reach out to me. Anything. I answer, everybody, I look at every email, I look at every message on Instagram, Facebook, it doesn't matter who it is, I answer everybody. But I really appreciate this opportunity to talk and tell my story.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Well, and you're welcome.

Jackee Taylor:

Our story.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Folks, this is a very sort of different focus for the podcast. And we'd like to shake things up around here and go in different directions, but I encourage you to listen to the podcast. It is just an interesting, crazy story. But I also think at times, I can't go out, at least I feel and and I think a lot of us feel this. We can't go out and necessarily change the world. This is one crazy messed up world right now. We've got the war in Ukraine and at times, these kinds of things seem so overwhelming. And the temptation is just to spur our head a bit, get comfortable, and just move along. I like, and what I've tried to do in my own life personally, I may not be able to change the world, but I can change a little piece of it.

Jackee Taylor:

Yes. That's exactly how I feel.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

The small steps. And I just wanted to share, and I think it's an important... I never knew any of this. I always, I know that Hollywood-

Jackee Taylor:

Oh, those lucky guys got a new house.

Oh they're on WITSEC? Those lucky guys. No.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

[inaudible 00:19:59]. And yeah, that's just not reality. So if any of you out there care and have the time, or some expertise or some insights in how...

Jackee Taylor:

Or if you're bored at three o'clock in the morning,

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

There you go.

Jackee Taylor:

Here's a good subject. Dig into this a little bit.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Yeah. So it's an opportunity to make the world a little bit better, to make a difference in small ways in terms of what you may be able to contribute. But the outcome here can be life changing literally, when we talk about these two kids. So folks, I hope you found something of value and I appreciate your listening in. Again, I encourage you Relative Unknown. I've just enjoyed it. I've been sharing it with friends and family and we're all having just like, wow. Wake up moments. But all right, I'll let you get back to the office. Get back to your day. Have a good one. Thank you. And oh yes, Washington, Jackee. Thank you.

Jackee Taylor:

Oh yes.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

No, thank you for having me.

Jackee Taylor:

You are most welcome.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

And thank you Paul Zuckerman. I love you.

Jackee Taylor:

Bye-Bye all.

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